In the LDS culture, going on dates is highly encouraged. If not to promote marriage, dating is generally regarded as a good way of getting to know people of the opposite gender. But as our culture is evolving, it seems like casual dating, much like what our parents participated in, is on its way out. I am frankly glad this is happening for one reason: I don't think that getting to know someone should be confused with dating, at least not initially. Why not get to know someone outside the guise of a date, and then take it to the next level? In other words, if there was a clear distinction between asking out to get to know someone better and asking out because of legitimate interest, a lot of confusion would be eliminated. Likewise, when getting to know someone, you would be focused on getting to know him or her. You wouldn't be reading into their subtle movements, thinking about the things you're supposed to do on a date, or otherwise confuse yourself with weird expectations.
You may be thinking to yourself that such a radical change is a bit too extreme. Let me remind you that since the dawn of time, however, the way in which a man and a woman get married has constantly changed. One ideology that I do believe in is the old adage that you should marry your best friend. Going on dates, in my opinion, is a bad way of forging genuine friendships with others. So I believe that the time for change is upon us. But I'm wondering what your thoughts on this are. What kind of problems would this lead to? What are some advantages? If we focused on maintaining good friendships first and foremost rather than stressing dating, what effect would that have on marriage statistics? I would GREATLY appreciate some honest input.
Saturday, February 09, 2008
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17 comments:
I think that you are supposed to get to know someone outside the guise of a date and then ask them out when you feel there could be interest there.
I think the flaw in your thinking occurs when you put too much pressure on the date. You can't worry about what the other person is thinking--chances are she is picturing your wedding day, wondering if she could acutally do that--but that's not your problem.
I think there are all kinds--people who date only those they already know and think there's a marriage possibility, others who date for fun with the "it's just one date" mentality, and others who don't date at all but hang out a ton and when it comes to wanting to date don't know how to make the transition.
hopefully people within these categories will find eachother. The last one is the problem though.
Trent, we should seriously chat about this, because I have a new philosophy that I want your input on.
i'm afraid you don't have enough space on this blog for me to give my two cents...
but, i do agree with you...and it can be done. since you have no control over what the girl is thinking, don't worry about it.
my theory, in a nutshell, is that we must make "dates" so frequent and insignificant that girls don't make such a big deal about them. out with the old "big deal" dates that take a whole night, and in with the brief one-on-one simple activities. in doing so, you have one-on-one opportunities to get to know the other person AS A FRIEND and there really is no pressure to drop to a knee and pop the question.
if we can achieve this mentality worldwide, i foresee only one problem...and you'll have to ask me about that. :)
Just get married to some 19 year-old, and love will come later.
Thank you Linda for stepping up to the plate and dishing out your thoughts. My new philosophy would have dating stay the same, with little pressure only they are truly dates. No guessing if the guy is going to pay for you, open up your door, hold your hand, etc. He either does it or he doesn't. I just want to get rid of dates that people go on for weird reasons: pity, become friends, desperation, loneliness. But Linda, I think we're on the same page - your thoughts don't conflict with my thoughts.
Lil Renny, I look forward to the chat.
Shauna, I think we both want to do the same thing, but the problem is how to do it. If you still call it a date, however frequent it may be, there are still going to be date-like thoughts that interfere. Why can't we just hang out with and meet people frequently, but just not call it dating?
Hayley, you are funny, but I think I've transcended that mentality.
That's where the problem is...it's all in the head. It's a mind game you have to play. "The greatest mystery a man ever learned, is to know how to control the human mind." (Brigham Young) You have to constantly remind yourself that it doesn't mean anything and you're just having fun with that one person. If you do it frequently enough, and with a VARIETY of people, then you won't be able allow yourself to think anything of it.
Your concern with "datisms" is another soapbox I have. If we could stop thinking of these things we do on dates (getting the door for the girl, reaching across the car to unlock the guy's door, the blasted awkward doorstep scene) as a means to an end, but rather fruits of a natural FRIENDship, then they won't just be datisms. You'll do them for everyone, not just people with whom you want to take a relationship to the next level. (Except the stupid doorstep scene...I don't know how to get past that one! Your advice?)
I really do think it is a matter of the mind. If you can control what your mind thinks, then casual dating will no longer be awkward and it will allow you to get to know several people without just "hanging out." That's as far as I've come on my philosophies on this matter. How to go from there is still untrodden and mysterious to me!
shauna-thanks! i've noticed that many people i've talked with have a strong attachment to dating. i'm not saying it is a bad thing. all i'm saying is that we could first and foremost establish good friendships. that's all i'm trying to say
I haven't participated in this comment section yet for a few reasons- OK, mainly one- I have been discussing dating philosophies for years and have noticed that it doesn't really get me anywhere. I kind of tend to avoid those conversations at this point. (It does happen that I will still get pulled into the discussion eg. earlier today...)
Anyway, this is my new philosophy: If someone asks me out (for whatever you want to call it- date/hang out/friend/whatever) I will go if I want to. If it gets to the point when I don't want to, I will say something. Like "no" and explain more if needs be.
This philosophy can work for guys to- If you want to do something with a girl, ask her- date/hang out/friend/whatever.
I'm not sure this addresses your issues, but that's how it's looking for me right now. I'll let you know if it changes.
Taryn, your comment was well-appreciated. I agree that it doesn't get me anywhere to discuss such frivolous nonsense, but it's fun! Mark my words though that dating as we know it will be history in 20 years. 'What is the future of dating?' you may ask. Video dating. I've got a friend in the Bay area that's going to help me spearhead a video dating website. Her name is Gloria and we will be rich in no time.
That was genius and should be submitted to the Daily Universe as an Op-ed for all to read and embrace!
PS-I'm glad you want to be like me, "and we will be rich in no time" it's flattering, really. But sadly, it won't get you anymore dates!
PS-When are you ever going to start leaving comments on my blog?!!! (ti schto)
Trent dating wasn't designed to be complicated. You see a girl that you may find attractive. You ask her on a date. The "date" should be a chance to have one on one time to find interest. By stating an outing is a date, you are directly telling the other individual that on first impressions they have something you like and that you want to take a closer look to see if initial impressions were correct. I also promote role reversal. However, “Just Hanging Out” is often the cowardly act of an indecisive male.
Both men and women who see it as anything more are greatly confused. It has the potential to become more if a mutual attraction is reciprocated. The reason I think men and women get this confused is completely because they don’t have their hormones in check. Looks can excite both men and women, and these individuals let their hormones govern their choices. This is a display of a lack of maturity… and in reality that these individuals are not ready themselves for a relationship. The ability to move on from dating into developing a relationship takes something more. When feelings are mutual to both parties the decision to date exclusively can be made.
The world has shown false ideas about the time frame in how these relationships happen. We see date = marriage. The middle gets left out. The middle ground is where one builds a respect, an understanding, good communication, and appreciation with an individual he/she has been dating. The best way I can think to relate this for your understanding is to think about your roommates. How well do you get along with them? Do you communicate? Do you get upset with each other for stupid things like eating your food or not cleaning up after themselves? Learning how to deal with all these things will help you to learn, grow, and be ready for a relationship. If you are interested in more details about this, come find me and we’ll discuss it one on one.
The real questions that need to be asked are… Do you know what you want? What are you doing to actively get what you want? Are you being straight forward about what you want? When you can be confident in your answers to these questions, you will no longer have issues with dating.
Hey Trent,
I discussed your theory with a friend. I thought you should read her remarks:
[What struck me is that Elder Oaks has spoken explicitly against “hanging out.” Trent knows better? Wow. Perhaps he should hold a devotional and share this revelation with us?
I think Elder Oaks spoke exactly against what Trent is proposing (no pun intended). http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,538-1-3100-1,00.html. Some quotes:
“Simple and more frequent dates allow both men and women to “shop around” in a way that allows extensive evaluation of the prospects. The old-fashioned date was a wonderful way to get acquainted with a member of the opposite sex. It encouraged conversation. It allowed you to see how you treat others and how you are treated in a one-on-one situation. It gave opportunities to learn how to initiate and sustain a mature relationship. None of that happens in hanging out.”
“Men, if you have returned from your mission and you are still following the boy-girl patterns you were counseled to follow when you were 15, it is time for you to grow up. Gather your courage and look for someone to pair off with. Start with a variety of dates with a variety of young women, and when that phase yields a good prospect, proceed to courtship. It’s marriage time. That is what the Lord intends for His young adult sons and daughters. Men have the initiative, and you men should get on with it. If you don’t know what a date is, perhaps this definition will help. I heard it from my 18-year-old granddaughter. A “date” must pass the test of three p’s: (1) planned ahead, (2) paid for, and (3) paired off.”
“Young women, resist too much hanging out, and encourage dates that are simple, inexpensive, and frequent. Don’t make it easy for young men to hang out in a setting where you women provide the food. Don’t subsidize freeloaders. An occasional group activity is okay, but when you see men who make hanging out their primary interaction with the opposite sex, I think you should lock the pantry and bolt the front door.”
“My single young friends, we counsel you to channel your associations with the opposite sex into dating patterns that have the potential to mature into marriage, not hanging-out patterns that only have the prospect to mature into team sports like touch football. Marriage is not a group activity—at least not until the children come along in goodly numbers.”
Also, how dare he suppose that every girl he asks out is planning her wedding to him? If he asked me out, all I’d think is, “Umm . . . okay. Cool.” That’s as far as it would go. None of my roommates would be overly excited either. We go on dates—some of us girls go on a lot of them. It’s insulting to think that we’d be so amazed and flattered that he asked any of us out that we’d be picking out china before he even picked us up for the date. We are available, yes. Desperate? Certainly not!
I’m sorry—I get annoyed. All we do in the ward is lazily hang out. There are people engaged now, but that has been a LONG time coming. I am tired of pretending like we have all the time in the world. We don’t. We have things to accomplish and trials to go through and love to experience—why not do it with someone along side us? Why not jump in and see if the water is just right? What if “the one” was hanging out beside him all along, and he wasted all this time making excuses while she is feeling worthless and wondering why it’s not happening for her? That is cruel and pointless.
I guess that is the reason for my fury. There is so much to do, and hanging out is POINTLESS.]
Adrianne, thanks for stirring the pot, but I feel misunderstood. Allow me to clarify. First off, I don't know where the comment about girls would think about marriage after one date with me. I might have unknowingly come across as arrogant, but that was purely unintended. I do not think anyone wants to get married to me. Secondly, I think dating is great and we should get into dating relationships more often. There is no better way to get to know someone than by getting into relationships. However, before we get into relationships, I feel like there should be a foundation of friendship. I feel like in our consumerist, 'I-want-it-now' society, we shoot for this end-result, without first establishing a good friendship. How to establish a good friendship? By being with someone in a non-date environment. Both parties can get to know the other better than a date, without calling it a date. I can say, "Hey, ___ do you want to go long boarding?" It's just me and her, we're paired off, and there are no expectations, other than we’re going to be doing something together. In this setting, the guy isn’t paying, or doing any other weird dating ritual for that matter. We’re just becoming friends and that’s it.
Because hanging out is the closest term to what I mean, I use it. Hanging out doesn't always have to be this big group, non-committal meat market. Here is my definition of hanging out: getting to know someone in a casual setting without any of the dating overhead. We can both be ourselves without worrying about how we're supposed to act because we're on a date. We don’t need to endure marathon, 7-hour dates when we've hardly even associated with the other person before. We can stop being nervous and start being ourselves. After a good friendship has been established, the guy is free to ask the girl on a date.
Yes, non-committal, eternal hanging-out is a bad thing, but we don’t live in the same times as our parents did. Our opportunity lies in adapting to our ever-changing world and that is what I propose. There's something to be said about actively hanging out.
You’re not misunderstood. I know clearly what you are implying and yet I disagree with it. I know several couples that have jumped into dating relationships without friendship first. In fact these relationships have been continuing on for close to and some over a year. They haven’t rushed into marriage because the want to make sure they really know each other first. Friendship develops it doesn’t have to exist first! If it doesn’t couples break up and try dating someone else. Haven’t you’ve heard of a “long courtship” and a “short engagement”? I also believe not all women want male friends! We don’t need male friends. For us the energy used to invest into such relationships is wasteful and distracting when what we are really looking for are dating relationships. You don’t see married men “hanging out” with their female friends. The good ones are usually with their wives. Your idea/definition of “hanging out” is a big contributor to the frustration and confusion facing single adults today.
Hmmm…these are all very interesting thoughts. Before I add my two cents, I really should preface my statement by saying that I am the least qualified person to comment on dating. I have never really dated that much and am probably as socially stupid when it comes to dating as anyone out there. However, I am good friends with several guys and believe that those friendships have been anything but useless or fruitless. Though none of these friendships have ever developed into anything more, I have grown so much as a person by being friends with these guys (just like I have from several of my female friends). Though several of my male friends are married now, that doesn’t change the fact that they are wonderful people and we still have a lot to talk about and care about each others well-being. Any close association with any person can help us come to know ourselves better and especially as we associate with members of the opposite sex we can come to know what qualities we want in a spouse (and what qualities we don’t want). My guy friends have taught me both of these things. So, now I guess I just need to find someone who has those qualities and at the same time wants what I have to offer! :-)
On another note, I think what you are frustrated with Trent, which is something I have always struggled with in Mormon culture, is the stigma associated with the word “date.” In the real (non-Mormon) world, dating is not necessarily about getting married. It is about enjoying being with a person and so spending time with them. Our problem as Mormons is that we are crazy and for some reason think that it means more than that and so a “date” can often become something unpleasant and awkward instead of just enjoying being with and getting to know another person.
The danger in just “hanging out” all the time though (which church leaders have repeatedly warned against) is that it is so safe and comfortable, but it doesn’t allow us to take the risk to actually make friendships into something more. So, there needs to be some sort of middle ground between the comfort of hanging out and extreme awkwardness that can happen when we pair off. Or, we all just need to be more gutsy and take a chance and just be prepared to experience discomfort and awkwardness if it doesn’t. That is where my suggestions and comments end though, because I don’t exactly know how to do this and by no means am I very confident or brave when it comes to taking chances in the dating arena.
wow...Aneiss (and/or her friend)is crazy--in a rather zealot-like, self-righteous, inconsiderate kind of way...
To put it frankly.
Like, jaw-droppingly so.
This was my thought. Couldn't sit by and not defend free thinking...annnnnd shame on me for giving an ad hominem arguement. But, those comments were insane.
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